Printable View
One more thing about batteries... the supplies of Lithium are finite. ---- And Can be recycled (At Cost)Quote:
Originally Posted by CeeBee
Windmills and solar won't be able to power the world with the required availability. --- Look at what Musk is doing with On grid Storage. That has the ability to change the game. Store Solar and Wind and use power when needed. With a Nuclear Base power that is the future in my mind. Goodbye coal, Oil and Gas
And economics come at play again... it's not worth it, the cost of recycling is many times higher than the cost of new Lithium, and probably won't come down in price too much because it's a very complex and energy-hungry process.Quote:
Originally Posted by Overdrv
So while the battery storage is somewhat feasible now on a small scale where other options don't exist, it is completely unfeasible on a large scale.
Mountain cabin off grid? No problem. Powering NYC on a hot summer night with 3 million AC units running? It ain't gonna happen.
Big battery packs are also a major risk, it only takes one cell to rupture and then all hell breaks loose.
Side note: I looked into storage solutions in the past as my peak and off-peak rates are significantly different, but no form of storage is even close to being competitive; even Tesla's "inexpensive" Powerwall system that is being promoted is $6k (plus install) for 14kWh, with 1000 cycles life it's $0.43/kWh for storage alone.
Sure, Tesla's batteries are expensive now. By the time I can afford one of his cars I'll probably be able to afford a battery too. Prices usually come down over time, not up.
Unless the resources are limited or environmental concerns start mounting. These batteries have a very complex manufacturing proce$$ and require rare metal$; materials make up almost 2/3 of the cost so there isn't much room for price reduction.Quote:
Originally Posted by northbayteky
Even if you can get these batteries down to $100/kWh (current cost of materials is some $125 before labor, overhead and profit), the cost for storage alone greatly exceeds the cost of generating energy from conventional sources; at current prices is costs 2..5x more to store in batteries (depending on technology) than to use a Diesel generator - and that speaks for itself.
Generating in a coal or gas fired power plant is $0.05/kWh - comparable to large scale wind and solar, but storing in batteries is $0.40+/kWh and not likely to go down too much.
The going price from Telsa is $250 per kWh for 100+ MWh projects
https://electrek.co/2017/03/10/tesla...ry-production/
And he can have it installed in 100 Days. On the other side of the Planet.
TLDRQuote:
Originally Posted by CeeBee
You are SUCH a wet blanket.
I have no shits left to give about how much things might cost. If I collect energy from the sun (for free) and I store it in a battery (regardless of the cost of it) the costs will remain fixed. If I'm not paying PG&E and I am not subject to their price increases, my costs will not rise regardless of how much I pay for solar panels or a battery so I can keep my free energy.
AND ONCE I PAY OFF THOSE THINGS THE COST IS IRRELEVANT. :-)
What world do you live in???Quote:
Originally Posted by northbayteky
It's not free. It's free to YOU because some rich folks bribed some politician whores and got everyone to subsidize the projects while they collect the profit.
At current battery costs, the price for storing the "free" electricity is much higher than just buying it from the grid. And in few years you get to buy a new battery pack, another $10k down the drain... or more likely 20k since you'll need multiple units to meet the demand.
Bottom line... you'll never stop depending on the power company.
But don't take my word for it.. even Elon Musk said it doesn't make sense to go off grid.
http://www.catalyticengineering.com/...rwall-battery/
Do you math at all? It makes no difference how much I pay now. Not one iota. At some point these things will be paid off and my costs for electricity will be at or near zero. I will not be paying PG&E for 98% of my electricity. When their rates rise, mine will remain the same. This is the point. It's the main point that you are missing entirely.Quote:
Originally Posted by CeeBee
ENTIRELY.
I will need electricity for the rest of my life. Do I want to pay PG&E for the rest of my life or do I want to have some control over my costs?
The output of the panels decreases with time. At some point inverters *will* fail and need to be replaced. Make no mistake... inverters have a finite life and cost thousands.Quote:
Originally Posted by northbayteky
If you choose to store in batteries that is an ongoing cost too.
You can only have "independence" if the system never fails, you manage to consume everything you produce during the day and you don't consume at night at all.
You will save some money in the long run if you sell your surplus to the grid - no question about it. But you will still depend on the power company to cover your usage in excess of generation, and most companies are trying to bribe legislators to do away with net metering - so that you only get paid at wholesale generation rate for anything you put into grid while paying full price for what you consume.
I am not dismissing solar as being valuable in some areas; I have looked at it myself, got the assessment, seen my math alongside their math and ultimately decided it is not worth it for my location at current prices and has the potential of ending up being a net loss for me.